Podcast summary:

Created by Cleanvoice

The podcast explores the complex relationship between gender and AI, discussing how design choices by developers can influence how users perceive the gender of AI assistants. Research shows men are more likely to use AI technology compared to women, mirroring gender imbalances in the workplace. The speakers examine how gender biases and perceptions impact AI adoption and use, emphasizing the importance of encouraging women to embrace AI for greater equity

Traditional gender roles and cognitive overload often prevent women from exploring new technologies like AI. AI can perpetuate existing workplace biases by reflecting gender imbalances, so it’s crucial to train AI systems to better represent diverse demographics. Everyone should be encouraged to explore and utilize AI, regardless of gender, to shape its development and ensure inclusive, equitable outcomes

The speakers also discuss the importance of addressing challenges faced by men and boys, such as mental health issues and educational disparities, through initiatives like International Men’s Day. They highlight the value that both genders bring to the workplace and the need for leaders to understand different communication styles and create inclusive structures that recognize these diverse perspectives.

Speakers:

Ercia Farmer

Mark Brooks OBE

Susan Popoola

Jenny Muhlwa

Helen Marshall

Links from the podcast:

Flexjobs AI gender gap report

Text to speech from Elevenlabs

International Men’s Day

Survey: Investigating gender equity in L&D

Transcript:

Created by Cleanvoice

Jo Cook: This episode is all about gender. I chat to our guests about AI, a focus on men’s health, achieving potential in the workplace, the perimenopause support needed, and research about gender perception representation in L&D. Firstly, let’s dive into AI. A question I thought was perhaps a little silly, but I couldn’t get out of my head, was does AI have a gender of its own?

ChatGPT voiced by Elevenlabs: AI in general does not have a gender. AI systems like me are designed to process and generate information based on data and algorithms, without possessing personal characteristics such as gender, emotions or identity. However, people may sometimes perceive AI systems as having a gender based on the voice used in virtual assistants, like Siri or Alexa, or the way language is written. The choice of voice or language style may reflect cultural expectations or user preferences. But it doesn’t imply that the AI itself has any intrinsic gender. These design decisions are made by developers to improve user experience and interaction, rather than to assign a gender to the AI. OK then, will AI ever have a gender?

Jo Cook: Will AI ever have a gender?

ChatGPT voiced by Elevenlabs: AI itself will likely never have a true gender, as gender is a complex human characteristic involving biology, identity and social roles. However, AI systems might continue to be designed in ways that reflect human concepts of gender, particularly through how they interact with users. In the future, more advanced AI could be programmed to adopt a particular gender expression or identity, based on user preferences or specific functions. For example, a system might allow users to customize their interaction by selecting a gendered voice or persona, or even creating more nuanced, non-binary or gender-fluid representations. However, any gender assigned to AI would still be a design choice or user preference and not a reflection of the AI itself, which lacks the biological or psychological basis to truly experience or embody gender. Gender in AI would remain an artificial construct, used to make interactions more relatable or tailored to human preferences. To voice answers from chat GPT rather than reading them out

Jo Cook: To voice answers from chat GPT rather than reading them out myself, I used a free text-to-speech generator from 11laps. Okay, so on to the real people. Erica Farmer is co-founder and AI and future skills specialist at Quantum Rise, and we had a discussion about gender use of technology. Erica, are there any stats on gender usage in artificial intelligence?

Erica Farmer: Yeah Jo, I guess this stuff like AI is changing all the time really, but typically we tend to see quite similar numbers reported on any kind of white paper or research, whether It’s AI in learning and development, HR or AI in operations, AI in marketing. We’re not seeing any disparity in regards to industry. I always say AI is quite agnostic, no matter the industry or the role or whatever people are using for, but typically we are and I guess people won’t be surprised to hear this, more likely to see men using AI technology compared to women.

So if you look at the FlexiJobs recent report, AI Gap Exploring Variants in Workplace Adoption, they’re saying around 54% of men are using AI in either both professional or personal lives, whilst unfortunately women are adopting it at a slower pace. They reckon around 35%. And it’s frustrating and it’s interesting because if you compare that to other previous research, we know things like, and I’m sure you’ve heard this before, if a man looks at a job description and he fits about 70% of the essential criteria, he will chuck an application in. Whereas typically the research shows that women will test themselves a lot more and kind of look to 90 to 100% of those essential criteria that they meet themselves for the job description. It’s not a surprise that we’re seeing a similar trend in the space of women, but whenever I talk at conferences and I kind of go with the just do it type message when it comes to AI, women can really start to get equity and using AI just by unlocking some thinking around using AI in their personal lives, for example, not just professional lives. So yeah, the balance isn’t there yet, but the message to everybody is just kind of pick it up and have a go, I suppose.

Jo Cook: I mean, that’s by my math, which I would never rely on, is a 19% difference. That’s quite stark.

Ercia Farmer: So that’s a fifth of the population, right, if you look at it that way. So yeah. So you talk about those differences, those disparities. Are there any reasons that less women are using AI? I wonder, and the people that I’ve spoken about the research I’ve done, some of the more traditional barriers that are either perceived by women themselves or perceived by supporting factors, families, male counterparts, bosses, etc, tend to play out things like imposter syndrome. So, you know, again, we see And I’m going to talk historically here and traditionally rather than more new age. If you are a female who is carrying the mental load of the family, the finances, perhaps working alongside that, having a husband or a wife or whoever that might be, at what point do I have the headspace and the time and energy to go, do you know what? I’m going to sit down and play with AI today. It just doesn’t happen, right?

Whereas I think if you’ve got traditionally less cognitive overload, less kind of stuff going on in your head and trying to keep all the plates spinning, and I know I’m kind of generalizing here, you do tend to have a bit more focus or motivation to go and try perhaps new technologies if that’s something you’re traditionally interested in as well. So it’s ironically we could use AI to free up headspace this kind of really valuable real estate that we have that is probably the most valuable thing we will ever have. We can use technology to delegate tasks to automate things in our personal lives or our professional lives or you know just get AI to I don’t know do some planning for the weekend or keep the kids busy or you know what what’s the shopping list going to be and again I’m being very traditional here in my gender role so it’s not what it doesn’t fit for everybody.

So traditionally we tend to see a bit of a gender imbalance when it comes to the types of roles in the workplace. So perhaps more traditional female type roles such as caring roles, service roles, administrative type roles. aren’t going to be the natural roles to pick up and try something new when it comes to the adoption of new technology and innovation, whereas roles that you could argue are traditionally male roles, STEM type roles, management, senior leadership type roles, they tend to be the roles that will have the time and the motivation to pick up new technology and try things like artificial intelligence. So again, there’s no wonder there’s a gender imbalance when it comes to AI, because we see a gender imbalance with everything else in the world. And that’s what AI picks up on with bias when it comes to the output and hallucinations and representation of, you know, you ask AI to give you a picture of an executive boardroom, for example, and it will still make it predominantly male in suits, Probably white, probably middle age. You’re starting to see some better outputs now as we train the AI to say, no, that’s not what modern society looks like. But actually, we’ve still got quite a long way to go from that perspective and from the usage perspective.

Jo Cook: Yeah, I did some image generation recently, and it was sort of coming up with a basic office kind of background. And you’re right, everybody was young, white, slim. And I had to specifically put in, it was like a variety of people and colours and races and sizes. And it still didn’t come up with a variety of sizes, but you know, at some point you kind of collect your losses and move on. And that gender piece, even though you were speaking relatively traditionally, you’re right, it’s still a huge challenge all around. And even during COVID, we saw the research coming out that predominantly it was women or mothers who were taking on the work and the care of the children and the homeschooling and so on. that still is a huge kind of area. And what’s the impact to both women and, of course, organisations around this disparity?

Erica Farmer: Yeah, it’s an interesting one, isn’t it? Because we know that if you look at things from whatever gender you refer to yourself as, gender fluid, male, female, non-binary, whatever it is, you’re going to bring something different to the usage and therefore the output and the value of using any kind of technology. So if we aren’t encouraging 51% of the global population to engage with what a lot of people, including myself, think is going to be the biggest change we’re going to see in a generation, let alone the biggest leapfrogging technology and therefore how we live our lives. If we’re not harnessing the thought process and the creativity and the value that women or non-binary people bring, then we’re just going to continue that bias, one level, male, pale, stale, for want of another phrase. Forgive me for using that, but I think it just kind of fits quite nicely. Things are just going to continue to go one way.

I was at a conference, a Women in Agile conference in Prague last week. And I got the question around, what is our responsibility as women when it comes to AI? And my kind of quite blunt response was, you need to step up and start training it from a woman’s point of view. Because if you don’t, we will continue to see this inequality and lack of equity within the output of this technology. up to us to step up and embrace this and make it equal and make it equitable because it’ll just go one way if we don’t.

Jo Cook: And when you say train it, I know I can create my own GPT, if I’ve got the paid for chat GPT for, I’ve played with that and I can train that, but I can’t train the AI. You know, when I create an image, I can say, make sure there’s women in it and stuff like that. Is that training the AI or is it something else?

Erica Farmer: I think it’s more a wider view of, you know, AI will scrape from the internet to you know, complete its data set. It will take data sets from organizations and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all the jargon, technical language you could put through, but ultimately this data is coming from the human race, whether it’s bias, whether it’s not bias, you know, different opinions, different ways of looking at the world, whether that’s through websites, whether that’s through additional information, whether that’s through data sets, whatever that might be. So by default, the more we interact with this technology, the wider it’s going to grow in terms of how it sees the world, it’s a replication of the human race’s brain.

And I know people struggle to get their heads around that a little bit, the kind of positronic network of everything it’s pulling from. And we don’t know where that’s going to end up. So I think we all have a responsibility to do our part in terms of what we use it for, how we engage with it, how we communicate, types of things we represent in terms of our opinions or the way we live our lives. AI is going to pick up and learn from all of that. That machine learning piece is exactly that really. It’s not just data sets of knowledge. It’s insights, it’s narratives, it’s stories, it’s everything really. So I believe that we’ve got the responsibility to use it for the right things such as, I don’t know, complex problem solving. And that looks different from a female perspective than it does from a male perspective. We know that. We know we need everybody’s point of view to get the best output. And AI isn’t any different in that space, I don’t think.

Jo Cook: Some big picture thinking and points about responsibility there. Mark Brooks OBE is a Communications, Domestic Abuse and Equalities Advisor and I spoke to him about International Men’s Day and more. Mark, why is normalising men and boys’ health, wellbeing and inclusion as a distinct field of public policy, public interest and practice so important?

Mark Brooks: Well, it’s a really interesting question and ultimately we live in a 360 degree world and that the success of everybody really matters and if we’ve got challenges and issues which are affecting men and boys then we can’t move together as a society, not only just helping men and boys with those problems, but also if we help to solve problems men and boys face, we also help women and girls too, and vice versa. And some of those challenges, for example, are around bigger picture issues about where men and boys fill their places in the world and in society, especially as some of those traditional work roles gradually are disappearing.

And also, we’ve seen the welcome rise of female empowerment. So for many men, it’s where do they fill in? and whether they feel lost and whether boys feel lost. But also some of the more detailed issues around, we’ve got a crisis in men’s health. 13 men every day die by suicide. One man in five does not live until they’re 65. And also we’ve got things like 88 men every day dying prematurely from heart disease. So you’ve got those issues. And then you’re looking at boys’ education, in terms of being behind girls at every single stage and there’s no reason for that and also 200,000 young men being unemployed and too many of them, ending up in the criminal justice system.

So there are a range of issues that we together need to fix. And what we’ve seen is a real change in the last five years because myself and a number of colleagues have been working in this area for around 15, 20 years. And it’s been really hard to get some traction in terms of men and boys issues being taken seriously. And part of that narrative has been around, well, all girls and women have problems, all boys and men are problems, or if they do have problems, they’re the ones who have actually created it. And that’s been an overriding narrative for a number of decades now. But what we’ve started to see is employers, society more generally, but also public policy, government, state bodies, for example, starting to realise that there are these challenges that men and boys face and that we can’t continue to ignore them. And how that’s played out in reality is that we’ve started to see select committee inquiries in Parliament around men and boys issues. We’ve seen parts of our regional government, whether at a national level or in the regions of England, start to have initiatives around men’s health. And also just a more sensible conversation, a more balanced conversation about those issues that men face. And importantly, the framing and how those have been discussed has moved away from being a zero-sum game.

That is, if we talk about men and boys issues, then somehow and erroneously we’re taking away issues that affect women and girls. But that’s kind of now dying away, those whole issues around terrible phrases like toxic masculinity or men don’t talk. all of those things are now being eroded. We’re now having a sensible conversation, which isn’t zero-sum game, i.e. we can still talk about the issues that women and girls face, but at the same time, talk about the issues that men and boys face. In essence, as Richard Reeves, who produced a brilliant book a couple of years ago called Of Boys and Men, I highly recommend it, we can think two thoughts at once.

Jo Cook: That’s very insightful and some of the stats that are on the International Men’s Day website are things like men making up 82% of rough sleepers, 96% of the prison population, one in three of all victims of domestic abuse and more information on there as well. So International Men’s Day in the UK is on the 19th of November. What is it that organisations can do to support that event and therefore men and the greater society at large?

Mark Brooks: Men and the greater society at large? Well, it’s a hugely successful event in the UK and it’s the biggest in the world in terms of number of people involved. And the best place is to go to our website, which is ukmensday.org.uk. And how people can get involved is that it’s based on free themes. One is about helping men and boys with their wellbeing. Secondly, about raising awareness and getting involved and supporting a whole host of charities which are out there now supporting men and boys issues, but also just having a positive conversation about the good things that men and boys do.

And the key thing to get involved is to hold events or take part in events, lots of information available. You can raise fundraising events for charities or literally just go on social media and talk about the men in your life, the boys in your life, and the great things that they do and how much you care and how much you support them. We have massive corporates getting involved, doing fundraising events, staff events where they’re getting organizations in to talk about prostate cancer checks or mental health issues.

And also organizations like sports clubs, for example, really signposting men, their fans, if you like, about what support is available. My last point is it’s a completely inclusive event. So as many women take part in International Men’s Day as actually men do, and that’s why it’s been such a success. and that’s why we ask everybody to get involved. Come back to my original point, it’s a 360 degree world and International Men’s Day is about supporting men and boys and that’s why having women involved is really important, just in the same way that huge numbers of men and boys get involved in International Women’s Day and rightly so.

Jo Cook: Continuing this idea about the 360 degree world is my next conversation. Susan Papula is a human value optimisation specialist, which is an interesting job title and I had to dive into that straight away. I’m going to be really challenging. Is that not a terrible way of describing people?

Susan Popoola: No, it’s not because it depends on what you think I mean by that. Maybe that’s my problem. So what do you mean by it? I hold the view, the belief that everyone has value. Everyone has something unique, something special to offer. And the key is how do we optimise and make most of people’s value for the sake of individual and for the sake of people around them. Whether you’re talking about education, the workplace or wider society. Okay, now we’ve got that clear, thank you. Tell me a little bit about the book about the male view of females at work. So my third book is Male Perspectives on the Value of Women at Work. I mean, to talk about that, I almost need to say why. Because I’ve heard people say, isn’t it more important what women think? And the key is, over the years, I’ve looked at the issue of diversity and inclusion, and specifically as it relates to gender. And there’s such amazing programs for women’s progression.

And women are just as capable as men. I’m not going to say more, and I’m not going to say less. just as capable. But when you take women’s capability, and when you take the progression that they have had, in spite of all those interventions, it doesn’t align. So for me, the question is, why? What’s missing? And so I thought, well, the people that are in those positions are men. So I can find a lot of reports and books and all where women are saying, this is what we do and what we bring, and this is what our challenges are. But what do men think?

Jo Cook: Because men are making the decisions?

Susan Popoola: Making a lot of the decisions because there’s still more men in leadership positions, senior roles, and so they’re making a lot of those decisions. And even if they’re not, they’re working alongside us. And so isn’t there value in understanding things from their perspective as well? Absolutely.

Jo Cook: So what are some of the key highlights or actions that maybe organisations or individuals can take from that book?

Susan Popoola: There’s the fact that we don’t have as much understanding of each other as we do. I think the key is we navigate differently.

Jo Cook: And what do you mean by navigate? Is that communicate? Is that get jobs? Is it get things done or something else?

Susan Popoola: So it’s right from, if I’m really going to explain that properly, I’ll take a step further back to how we’re nurtured and developed. Whether you talk about nature, whether you say men and women, girls and boys are different or by nature, that’s one thing. But the key is we’re brought up differently. You find even if it’s not as in your face as it used to be, there’s still that subtle message that says girls you have the responsibility to be able to look after and support a family and bring up children and boys and when you become men you have the responsibility to be able to look after and provide for.

You see who’s in the leadership roles, the senior leadership roles. You see nurturing females. So all of those messages are there. And so they have an impact on how we typically, because these are generalizations, how we typically approach the workplace as men and as women by the time we reach that place. So that’s a key. It’s understanding how that impacts how we view things. and the language that we use, whereby men are typically also more likely to speak in the I, while women are more likely to speak in the we, which might be seen as less confident. And so men are more likely to ask for more, to put themselves forward for things, while women are less likely to do so, and so on and so forth.

So there’s a need to understand why we approach things the way we do, why we navigate differently, the recognition that women The fact that they don’t always put themselves forward doesn’t mean that they’re less capable. The fact that we might come with different skills and capabilities and there’s a value in bringing both together in alignment to get the optimal outcomes for organizations. So those are some of the key things whereby I say there’s that need to begin to look deeper and understand these things. So then in terms of leaders, starting with leaders, leaders need to understand these things and we need to begin to look at what we value. We need to begin to look at the structures within organisations and so on and so forth.

Jo Cook: Love this deeper dive into communication and understanding of others. My next conversation is with Jenny Muhlwa, who is a menopause and women’s health trainer and speaker. Let’s get into this conversation to firstly understand menopause, but then about how L&D can get involved. Jenny, we’re here talking a little bit about menopause. I’d just like you to define the three stages that I understand are perimenopause, menopause and postmenopause. What are they?

Jenny Muhlwa: Great question. And I think it’s one that so many people don’t know about. I certainly didn’t know. I had no idea until I started looking into this that there were three stages and how long they lasted for. And I’m wondering how many others listening to this or watching this today will also be thinking, oh, well, menopause, that happens like well over 50 because that’s what I thought. But I’m here to tell you that is not the case.

So as you say, there are three different phases and typically speaking, perimenopause can take place between the ages of 35 to 45. Anything within that is considered a normal range to start perimenopause. And what is perimenopause is when there’s less signals going down to the ovaries, there aren’t as many ovaries to get released. So there is more, the brain is working on overtime to try and get those ovaries out because there aren’t as many of them as there were before. This then happens for around 10 years per menopause. And then once you’ve not had a period for a year, that is the point that you are then in menopause. From that point, so in effect, it’s kind of like a day of celebration. You can have a menopause day. That’s like the day that that happens. Then after that, you hit post-menopause. And then there are different things that happen. The sort of hormones level out a little bit during that time.

Jo Cook: OK, thank you for clarifying that. And the amount of time and 35 feels like a young age. But as you say, if it’s a 10 year thing that might happen, that’s understandable. So during perimenopause, there’s lots of hormone fluctuations. And I understand there are oestrogen changes or progesterone changes. What happens in a woman’s body and in a woman’s brain during that time? And is it all about the hot flush or the hot flash for our American friends?

Jenny Muhlwa: So it’s not just about the hot flush flash. There is actually far more that happens. There are so many symptoms. And when you ask someone, What were some of your first signs that you realized you’re in perimenopause? That could be anything from joint pain to brain fog to levels of anxiety to not wanting to travel anymore is really common. So lots and lots of different things that actually can be associated with perimenopause.

So to understand it, let’s first talk about a normal cycle. So a normal cycle, you’ll have a bleed, and I’m talking generally speaking, a bleed for around five days. After that point in time, I like to think of it like a plane going off in the sky. So this is like you’re at the runway, you’re taking on the food, you’re mapping your plan. That’s kind of like your period for five days. Then you go on the runway and you’re starting to lift off. And this is like estrogen starting to rise. Once you’re up in the sky, that’s like ovulation, that happens for around 48 hours, and then you start to come down into land, and this is when they’ll have, estrogen will start to go down and progesterone will start to go up, and that’s when you’re coming then into land. Of course, you land, you refuel, that’s your period, and then off we go again.

Now, what is happening during perimenopause is, like I say, there are less ovaries now that are available to be released. The brain is working harder And there is less estrogen. So estrogen is your confidence hormone, is the one that makes your hair all glossy, that makes your skin kind of all this kind of good stuff. Progesterone, I call that the let’s get stuff done hormone. So the get stuff done hormone, this is fluctuating far more because the brain sending far more of this to try and get the job done. So this is where you’ll see this going up and down, up and down, up and down during perimenopause. And that’s what creates many different symptoms because the get stuff done is creating the brain fog, is creating anxiety, is creating the aches, is creating the hot flashes. All of this kind of stuff is happening from that fluctuation. Then when you hit postmenopausal, those things start to flatten out and you have less of that happening.

Jo Cook: Is there less of anything else happening post-menopause, or do women typically become energetic and get their brain fogs gone, or is it just a downhill slide into ageing? How does that work?

Jenny Muhlwa: So first of all, I’ve heard a lot, I’m not post-menopausal, but I’ve heard it a lot said that it is a liberating experience and you come out of it a different woman. So wow, that sounds like a place, like an adventure I want to go on. And actually in other, like in mammals, I think it’s whales or dolphins. I think it’s whales. The post-menopausal woman starts to lead the pod. to perimenopause. The reason why is because supposedly there is, progesterone levels out. And so there is a level of happiness that stays for longer, but equally there’s an essence of, I don’t care as much what other people think of me. And that also creates more happiness in life as as well.

Jo Cook: Interesting. So what are two or three tips or things that we can go and investigate that as women, whether we’re at the 30, 35 end looking at this in thinking it might be coming soon, or whether we’re deep in perimenopause and night sweats, or we’re, you know, just kind of towards the end of that thinking, actually, am I nearly at my year point? What are some of the things that we can do to look after ourselves as women?

Jenny Muhlwa: So the first step is to really start to listen to our bodies. And I think we’ve lost that along the way. In fact, we’re all cyclical. A year is cyclical, seasons, a day, we go to sleep, we eat, you know, everything is cyclical. It’s not just women, everything is, that’s life. But we’ve lost that along the way. And we think of time in more of a linear format. What’s your five-year plan rather than a cycle of a plan? So get back to who you are. Listen to your body. Now this can be quite hard for women. So the first thing to do is just to track it. You can track it. You can track your cycle with a diary, with an app. There’s great ones, Flow, Moody, Clue are three of my top three that I recommend. And that will help you because you’ll start to understand where you are in your cycle. And particularly if cycles are starting to become a little bit irregular.

Jo Cook: And they also track symptoms as symptoms as well, don’t they? Which I think is quite important.

Jenny Muhlwa: Exactly. Yes.. And some of them like Moody has some lovely like breath exercises that you can do in different things like this. So that’s the first step is start to understand where you are. That awareness, go and listen to podcasts, get some awareness training. The awareness is what’s going to help you to recognize what’s going on within yourself so that you can then start to support yourself and support others around you as well.

So knowledge is the key. I mean, there’s so, why is it coming to fruition now? It’s coming to fruition now. There’s an economic reason that it is, is because we’ve got more women in the workplace. We want more women to be able to pay taxes, quite frankly, and make a big impact on the world. So therefore we need a lot more support for women. And yet the amount of research into women’s health has been terribly small. So. It’s starting. Be encouraged that the rate that it’s now being made available is a lot quicker than it’s ever been before. So get out, get some awareness. If you are in work and you’re in the UK, You can also access to work and you can get yourself a menopause coach for free, whether you own your own business, whether you work in a company. So check out access to work on golf.uk. You can do it under the disability act, basically. So that’s awesome. Cause that will help you to start to put some strategies in place for your particular need.

Jo Cook:  And I think that’s awesome that it’s available, not just for people in kind of work corporate environments, because I don’t know the stats, but I read about how many women of this age leave work because they’re not supported. They don’t feel comfortable. It’s not the right environment for them anymore and start their own businesses, which on the one hand is absolutely great as a small business owner myself, completely behind that. That’s wonderful. but it’s maybe for the wrong reasons.

And so I think having that support wherever you are at work, I think it’s really good. And lastly, when we think about our role in learning and development, is it just about putting out an e-learning course about menopause awareness or is there a bit more to it potentially?

Jenny Muhlwa: I would say there’s probably a little bit more to it. So I think what we’re trying to do is create, there’s a lot of taboo. So you need to be able to create the conversation. The conversation isn’t going to necessarily happen by watching and consuming. I could watch tons of videos on how to get healthy in YouTube, unless I actually take a step to get into the gym and actually lift a weight, nothing’s going to change. And it’s the same with this. I could consume lots of stuff on Instagram, but until I have conversations with other women, nothing really is going to change. that space, it might be bringing a speaker that can help to facilitate those discussions that can make it that safe environment that can get people to a level where they’re starting to do be bringing to do that.

From that point onwards, you can also be, it’s great to be doing it, not just for women, but for the whole organization as well, because there’s a level of understanding for everyone to be able to have a language that everyone feels comfortable with, have an understanding. So that awareness, but equally, the biggest thing is the conversation. to enable that to happen because otherwise it’s just, like I say, it’s just me understanding I should eat healthier but I’m never picking up a broccoli. What changes?

Jo Cook: Great advice and inspiration from Jenny for all of us to follow up on in our own way. Helen Marshall is CLO at Thrive, has started a community and is interested in diving deeper into this topic.

Helen Marshall: As founder of Women In, the WhatsApp community for women from across L&D, HR and associated people spaces, it’s been evident to me that we really need a piece of research that can focus in on the current situation for women in the workplace, but also the role that gender and male allyship plays in that outlook for women as well. What sparked this for you?

It’s been on my mind since I referenced Donald Taylor’s, I think, 2015 initial Women in Learning report that he conducted alongside the original Women in Learning group, which I think was updated in 2018. And I often reference this in relation to women in leadership positions, particularly within L&D. And it’s become evident recently that there hasn’t really been an update on that piece of research since then. So we’re about six years behind keeping up to date on the state of play for women in L&D. So I decided I’d do something about that and create this research piece investigating gender equity in L&D.

Jo Cook: Sounds like a good time to see what’s going on around gender in the world of L&D. What helps women? What support’s still needed? Tell us a bit more about bit more about it.

Helen Marshall: The idea is that it investigates specific issues around women in the workplace, but also the role that other genders play in this bigger picture as well, particularly around skill specific questioning around human skills and around technical skills and around the certain types of initiatives that organizations create to support people and people of any gender within their organizations.

So the idea is that it’s a holistic view of the state of gender more broadly within business, specifically related to L&D, but also really honing in on the state of play for women. Like I said, investigating whether gender equity has been achieved or even will be achieved within the next five years or so.

Jo Cook: How can people get involved get involved and who is right for you?

Helen Marshall: So the survey is is now live and any contributions from anyone working within L&D, whether that’s full-time, part-time, or contractor basis, in-house or for suppliers, are welcome to fill in this survey and all insights will help to inform the research study and the results will be shared with the wider community via myself on LinkedIn and via associated partners or supporters of the women in group more broadly. So really appreciate you listening and taking the time to share this more broadly and really hoping to shed some light on gender equity within L&D.

---

Follow the Training Journal podcast on your app of choice, or sign up to the newsletter to always be in the know!